Interview by with Sam Nwaoko
Nigerian Tribune (Ibadan): FEATURES
Monday 5 January 2009reprinted in Orita, Ibadan Journal of Religious Studies,
40:2 (December 2008), 1-10Meet Rev. Father Joseph Kenny, Catholic priest-turned-Islamic Professor—Says "I taught Islamic studies to present facts."
Reverend Father Joseph Kenny OP is a fascinating contrast. He was ordained a Catholic priest of the Order of Preachers, otherwise known as the Dominicans, 45 years ago in his native United States of America but has lived in Nigeria for the past 44 years. He is currently the Dean of Studies and Professor at the Dominican Institute, Ibadan, Oyo State, after retiring from the University of Ibadan where he taught for 22 years and rose to become the Head of the Department of Religious Studies. He is an expert in Arabic and Islamic Theology. He speaks with Sam Nwaoko on sundry issues. Exceprts:
When did you arrive in Nigeria?
I arrived in November 1964.
Did you arrive as a Priest?
I was ordained in 1963 and finished my studies in 1964. I then had one summer assignment in the United States before I came over here.
Where were you ordained?
I was ordained in Dubuque in Iowa, in the Dominican theology house there.
Where you born in Iowa?
I was born in Chicago.
Many think you are Irish?
My grand parents were born in Ireland. They were all from Ireland and migrated to the US. However, this is my 45th year in Nigeria and I am a Nigerian citizen now. I have a Nigerian passport.
So how old are you now?
I am 72 years old. In January I will be 73.
Did you grow up in Chicago?
Yes. My first 20 years were there—before my ordination.
Have you always wanted to be a priest?
Yes, as long as I can remember. From little child, I never wanted to be anything else. That was the priority.
How about your siblings?
I have an elder brother, who is dead, and a younger brother who is just a year and a half younger than me. After that come two sisters and a younger brother.
You took the vow of poverty, chastity and obedience a long time ago.
I was professed in 1957 and I was determined to live the vows. I always wanted to be a priest and everything was just focused on that. There were no distractions or any doubting of the vision whatsoever.
Has it always been as a Dominican?
I had started out in secondary school in a diocesan minor seminary. As I was finishing that, I began to discover that there was such a thing as religious life in many different forms in different congregations. I did some research and the Dominicans stood out so that's why I joined them.
Is it the academics in the Dominican life that attracted you or what?
I think it is their balance between academics and preaching in the public arena and monastic prayer and community life in the private arena. This closeness to God is a very important dimension. The other side is the life of study and the preaching. The Dominicans are known for being on the cutting edge of everything moving in the church. That's why they attracted me very much. They had Thomas Aquinas among numerous other great academics and their intellectual tradition is very strong and good.
At that point did you delve into your studies in comparative religion?
That came the year after I was ordained. Then I was just finishing my theological studies before I got my permanent assignment. At that time, in in January 1964, Thaddeus Lawton, the first Bishop of the Catholic Diocese of Sokoto, came to give a talk to the students in Dubuque and he said that the Holy See wanted the Dominicans in Nigeria to do two things: One was to admit Nigerian candidates to the Dominican Order, because before then, they were only training diocesan priests. There was no religious life, and no congregations could accept Nigerian candidates. Secondly, the Holy See wanted the Dominicans to provide some specialists on Islam because the country is about half Muslim and you have to live together. Christians in Nigeria seemed to have had no idea of what Islam stood for; what Muslims think, who they were, what the teachings are, how to relate to Muslims and so on. So it was seen as a necessity for the Church to know how to have some kind of bridge to Muslims in the country.
After the speech, I told Bishop Lawton I could be interested, and he said let me arrange it. So I saw myself on the tarmac in Kano in November 1964. I've been here ever since. Before then, even though I knew that Chicago Dominicans worked in Nigeria, I had no interest in going there. I never gave it a thought. But when Bishop Lawton gave his talk, I made up my mind on the spot. I said, let me offer myself, because I knew nobody else would do it.
After two years in Nigeria, I went to Rome for a year to study Arabic grammar. I spent another year in Tunisia to continue the study of Arabic language. There I was living among the Tunisian students in the university and attending classes with them and speaking Arabic from morning till night. That really was a great help. I got Arabic down very well at that time. Then I went to the University of Edinburgh, Scotland and did a doctorate there in Arabic and Islamic Studies. For the doctorate, I did some research in Cairo, Egypt.
You were a white man living among the Arabs and studying their language and religion. Were eyebrows not raised? What was the reception like?
Over there, mixing with Arabs was no problem. Most of them didn't know I was a priest. I was a priest privately. I was not exhibiting it or trying to convert them. I was just talking with them like fellow students. I was very well received there; in fact, I got along with them very well. Even the Tunisian government gave me a scholarship to study there. Interestingly, during holiday breaks, some of the students invited me to come to their village and stay with them in their homes. That was really nice and I liked it. In the villages, you mix with them, and see the real life beyond the university or town setting.
Was Cairo the same as Tunis ... What was it like when compared?
Cairo is a very much bigger place and it has a very different character. There I just did some research in libraries. That's all.
Were there notable challenges while you researched in Cairo?
There was no trouble there, except the challenge of meeting my academic targets. Only I remember having had to hide under the bed one night when Israeli planes were strafing the area.
After this, at what point did you join the University of Ibadan?
I came back in 1970 and was working in the North. In 1976, I came to Ibadan to teach in the Dominican Institute at the time. After about two years, this first attempt to start an Institute was not thriving, the way the present Dominican Institute has been doing since 1994. I was about to go back to the North and surprisingly, from out of the blue, representatives from the University of Ibadan came to tell me that there was a vacancy, and would I please join them. I never applied and it never crossed my mind that I would teach in the University of Ibadan. They came to me and asked me to come there. I consulted around, and the Provincial said I should accept, so I did and I was there for 22 years.
Eventually, I was the Head of the Department of Religious Studies of the University of Ibadan and represented the Dean of the Faculty of Arts at different occasions.
As a Professor, Head of the Department, a Catholic Priest teaching Islamic Religion and a white man, how did it blend?
In the classrooms at UI, whenever I treated Islam, it was simply to present the facts. What is the information about Islam in Muslim sources? What does the earliest biography of Mohammed say about him? I simply present the facts. I don't say anything other than that in the classroom. It's a government university and not one for indoctrination - it's not a place to make anyone Muslim or Christian. When I present the facts, I leave the students to draw their own conclusions. That is how I treated basic Islamic practices, Islamic Theology, which I did my Ph.D. thesis on, and Muslim history. I use only primary Arabic sources for my material.
Initially, there seemed to be some misgiving on the part of some of the Muslims - especially in the Arabic Department. They seemed to be alarmed about a non-Muslim teaching Islam. That was at the beginning. As time grew, they could see that I was not trashing Islam, that I showed enough respect for it. They began to melt a little bit. As years went by, the initial frigid atmosphere got progressively warmer and I would say that as I left there and even now that I am retired from the university, I still continue to interact warmly with these people. I am often invited to conferences to sit on the panels and to deliver papers. I have become quite close to them. There is even one of them teaching at the Dominican Institute.
Your 22 years in the University of Ibadan must have brought you close to so many students. Are there some of them you'd like to recall.... Are there those among them who impressed you?
There were so many so it is hard to say. Most of my classes had Christians in the majority but there were always some Muslims. However, I keep running into them in different places and they will say 'oh! You taught me in UI.' Some are even Alhajas with veil.
However, I recall one Ishaq Tijjani. He was a brilliant student and we became very good friends. He went off to do PhD in Edinburgh and now teaching in one of the Gulf states. UI missed a good chance by not grabbing him on time. I do hear from him from time to time.
You ran your column "Among Muslims" in the Catholic Weekly Independent for years. Why did you rest it?
That was running every week for a few years. I tried to make each article short, and the total of 108 articles covered all basic information about Islam that I could think of. I just covered it like a complete course. There's another book, West Africa and Islam, what every Catholic or any Christian should know. It is in 45 lessons which I did for the Association of Episcopal Conferences of West Africa. I have hard copies for sale, but it is also on my website: www.josephkenny.joyeurs.com —or just find it through Google.
How would you say your works have affected Christian/Muslim relationship? How do people receive you and your work?
Since I retired from the University of Ibadan and moved away from purely academic teaching of Islam, I take part with Muslims in different seminars and participate in different talks. I have found these meetings very positive. When you get inside and see things as a Muslim will sees them, you can talk to him very well. You see the Muslim's aspirations and stand in his place to know how he feels and what he thinks.
A lot of the things a Muslim aspires for are not unreasonable but if you look at it as an outsider, you cannot understand him. An example is the rebel leader in Congo, Laurent Nkunda, who was met by former President Olusegun Obasanjo. Until Obasanjo went to Congo and met him, nobody knew his mindset. Nkunda gave three demands that are not unreasonable. So many things that appear unreasonable from a distance, but are not outrageous when you see them from within.
If you want to hear real criticism, just listen from the inside. For example, if an American criticises Nigeria as a corrupt country, Nigerians will rally to the defence of the country, saying here is an outsider attacking us. But if you want to hear criticism of Nigeria, just listen to Nigerians talk about Nigeria. They will be very severe. In the same way, we don't have to criticise Muslims from the outside. Just listen to Muslims talk about themselves if you want to hear criticism about what's going on or what's wrong with the Islamic community. You'll hear the most devastating criticism.
In the same vein, every community has its problems, the Catholic Church has its problems. We know them and we are trying to overcome them. An outsider should show some understanding and be sympathetic when criticising. This is because when you go inside and see how people look at themselves, you will see that they have a lot to struggle with.
You've been in Ibadan for about 30 years. How is your Yoruba compared to Arabic?
I don't think it has grown so well. I am far better in Arabic than I am in Yoruba. When I was in the North, I got Hausa very well because I was living with them and talking in Hausa from morning till night. But here, English predominates and you don't have to talk in Yoruba. If you don't have a boyhood in the language, you don't really catch it. I can understand and hold my own fairly well, but I'm not that fluent, and it has not been improving.
You spoke in Yoruba in Iwa, a film you acted in about two decades ago. What about it now?
That was filmed by Tunde Kelani and directed by Lola Fani-Kayode. The two are still very active in the film industry. I do not know if a DVD was ever produced. I don't know how to get in contact with these people now but I'd like to get a hold of the video.
What about music. You did a lot in the chants of Psalms sung by your brother Dominicans. Is the music used across Dominican Provinces or just here?
I think it is mostly here. I've been trying to record the whole corpus of Latin Dominican chant, from the Liturgy of the Hours and the Mass. All I have finished is on my website. Many Dominicans elsewhere have shown interest in it, but it is not generally used, because it is in Latin.
I know Latin, understand and appreciate it well because I'm part of the generation that was brought up in it. But I'm afraid that after I'm gone, there won't be people who can interpret and appreciate our rich liturgical tradition? Now that I am capable of doing it, let me record it and it will be something for posterity as part of the archives of the Order. The whole idea is to have it in a media format so that people can see the text and hear it at the same time.
You translated the Latin text of Gerald de Frachet on Dominican history. So one can say your Latin is as good as Arabic and your native English?
Yes. But the book has never been printed; it's only on the website.
You are a very busy man. You no longer find time to play the piano. How do you relax?
Yes I do not have much time to play the piano as before especially since the one we've got in the chapel got spoilt. Now we have the electronic keyboard which I don't enjoy very much. But the piano in the Dominican Institute has just been repaired, and, like Pope Benedict XVI, I enjoy playing Beethoven.
However, for relaxation I enjoy watching Nigerian films on Africa Magic. They are unequal though, some very good, and some not so good. But they are very realistic and down to earth. They show real life that you can recognise. You can see the okada going through a puddle of water, a goat walking by, and you can also see jeeps going into the mansions. It is just life as you see it. In the Western movies, they rely mostly on computer tricks. People are flying through the air and fireworks going this way and that way. The Western films are imaginary and not in any way related to reality.
Having been here for over four decades, you should know much about Nigerians. If you are to describe an average Nigerian, how would you describe him?
I will say somebody vivacious, somebody who doesn't give up with obstacles. He keeps pressing and pushing, in spite of hard times, to make life succeed. This is the basic thing.
However, you find, of course, deviations like corruption and armed robbery and that sort of thing. But there is also a widespread underlying goodness and interest in others that is undeniable. There's a good spirit and sense of community and commitment.
What would you say have changed in the Nigerian of 1964 when you came and now?
Life was simpler then. There was electricity in some of the towns and it was constant. In those days, fewer people had cars, TV or other amenities. There was the privileged GRA and outside was everybody else. But now there is a very powerful middle class and rising level of education.
On the other hand it is true that the level of government education is plunging. Even so, you find Nigerian experts in every field. I mean, if a Nigerian wants it, he can master any area. But unfortunately, most of our real brains leave the country and get jobs outside. There they excel. Here they could do the same if they were in charge. But with everything still in the hands of government, the infrastructure is in a terrible state.
Do you have any regrets in living in Ibadan as a Dominican?
My only regret is having had to abandon my work in the North, especially in Malumfashi, where I started in Nigeria. But I cannot be in two places. My dream is to resume work there from my place in heaven, by God's grace.
I would like you to recall those events you wish never happened.
I see that God has a good purpose even in the worst things he allows to happen. But my greatest disappointments have to do with events in the Church or the Dominican Order, when some candidates start out promising, but later fall by the wayside.
I would also like to know the high points in your illustrious academic career and priestly life.
I am satisfied to have had the privilege of touching the lives of many people across the Nigerian spectrum, from students in Catholic seminaries (where I taught part-time), to a great number of Protestant pastors in the Department of Religious Studies, U.I., and numerous Muslim students. I am grateful also for having had the confidence of a good number of religious leaders, from Catholic bishops to Anglican, Baptist and other church leaders, and prominent Muslims.
I have not made a big splash in the University, the Church or the nation, but I pray that my quiet way has helped to bridge the religious divides among Nigerians, and brought some people closer to God, to Jesus and his Church.
Since my retirement from the University of Ibadan I have been giving regular service at Seat of Wisdom Catholic Church at the University. I try to prepare good sermons (they are all on my website), but I find hearing confessions (about 150 a week) the forum where I see Christ work on the personal lives of people. This exercise always brings to my mind the line in Psalm 113 "He raise the poor from the dust."